reinventing the wheel

[mamaw]

hello, i have tried darkside and i like it.
but, i'd like to learn how to make it piece by piece. so, i need advice from all the guru's here :)
mine is laptop.

i have read this:
http://linuxbbq.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=524

suppose i want to go to bbq route, i read these :
http://linuxbbq.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=620

i already know a little how to set up an openbox session, by looking at autostart.sh at darkside.
(i look too at bbq-bloat, but nothing there, only feh and redshift , but the conky is up and running (?) )

the part that i don't understand is the daemon part..
what else do i have to install to make the netinst to be more -uhm- comfortable (bloated(?)) as newbie friendly as -say- lmde or solydxk.

thanks for the time and i hope i am welcomed to this community :)

(by the way, i'm stuck at windows environment at work >.< )

[machinebacon]

Hello,
of course you are welcomed :) No worries, your questions make sense:
you have two ways of kicking an X session autostart: WM-depending (for example autostart.sh) and WM-agnostic via .xinitrc. You also have those apps that start as root, found as .desktop files in /etc/xdg/autostart as well as WM-agnositc starters in .local/share/ (these can be used if you have more than 1 WM and you use no Xinit to start)

As for the daemons, do you mean system services or exactly these startup applications?
For the network, do you prefer a GUI solution? If so, you can pick:
- gnome-network-manager and dependencies (huge!)
- wicd-gtk (read its manual, though)

Hope it helps for the beginning.

[mamaw]

thank you for the quick reply.
i mean the system services.

i have managed to install network-manager, and the applet (without reccomends.. the reccomends bring a whole gnome desktop :O )

Hello,
you have two ways of kicking an X session autostart: WM-depending (for example autostart.sh) and WM-agnostic via .xinitrc. You also have those apps that start as root, found as .desktop files in /etc/xdg/autostart as well as WM-agnositc starters in .local/share/ (these can be used if you have more than 1 WM and you use no Xinit to start)

this is new. i will google this. :)

[machinebacon]

System services are managed via systemd. I am afraid you will need to google and/or visit Mr Poetterings 0pointer website for infos about how to enable, disable, start and stop services - but: you can still use the old sysvinit-way to start and stop things in Debian (sudo service <name> stop/start/restart)
Check the output of "systemd-analyze blame" to see what is being started and how long it took. You can either disable services or uninstall them if there is no need.

A few words about autostart:
In your case, for an openbox plus stuff session, you can basically create a simple .xinitrc that contains:

Code: Select all

#/bin/bash

# uncomment as you like:
# xrdb ~/.Xresources &
# xbindkeys &
# x-www-browser &

# and this starts the window manager, 
# some require additional launchers for stuff like automounting, dbus, etc.
exec openbox-session

and put all your startup apps into autostart. If you use other WMs, check if they have their own way to start up apps. If you want a totally independent solution, put all startup applications into xinitrc.
For the case of network manager, you shall have certain things like the gnome-keyring started in /etc/xdg/autostart
In Crunchbang they are started as block via autostart.sh, that's possible, too. I prefer /etc/xdg/autostart/ because it works on all WMs

it's again different if you have a DE, like XFCE or GNOME, there the startup things are managed via a <desktop_env>-session launcher. But that's not in the scope anyway :)

[mamaw]

systemd-analyze blame > i see so many services and mount, i lot of them is new for me :O

so basically -for an openbox wm- i can move everything at autostart.sh into ~/.xinitrd ?

# some require additional launchers for stuff like automounting, dbus, etc. > this is what a distro become a newbie friendly right? i'd like to know this more..
a lot of openbox how-to end up at openbox+conky+tint2+wallpaper and a network-manager.

this is going to be a lot of reading for me :D.

[DebianJoe]

this is going to be a lot of reading for me :D.

Yes, yes it is.

It is totally reasonable to use .xinitrc instead of launching a separate script that essentially does the same thing. It will be necessary for YOU to decide what services that YOU wish to run. This takes simply looking through what is being used, reading up on it, and then deciding if you will need/want that functionality.

The real interesting points are when you begin to look for replacements for certain parts of your current system. (Ceni as opposed to Network Manager + Applet, for instance.) Do you need or really even want the little icon? Is it worth the cost in performance and dependencies? These are things that only you can decide.

As far as rebuilding it exactly, then MB is your man. Just allow me the chance to suggest that while you're rebuilding it, that you take the time to understand each piece of the puzzle, as you'll be able to tailor the system to meet your individual tastes and needs far better through all of that "lot of reading" that you'll be doing anyhow. Strive on.

[machinebacon]

Fact is that things need to be decided as they depend on each other:

Just as an example: after boot, do you want a Display Manager managing your login? If yes, which one, and if no, do you use xinit to startx via xinitrc or xsession? Should there be automounting, if yes, will you do it with policykit or put the mountable partitions into fstab?

These decisions are absolutely crucial, but you can change them at any time. the only requirements are: time, interest, and good reading/googling skills.

[rhowaldt]

systemd-analyze blame >
# some require additional launchers for stuff like automounting, dbus, etc. > this is what a distro become a newbie friendly right? i'd like to know this more..

there is really no such thing as 'user friendly' (or 'newbie friendly' in this case). for example, take automounting (you insert an USB-stick, the system automatically sees it and mounts it as a filesystem for you to use). This sounds like an easy thing to have, but take a look at the alternative. when everything is set up correctly (fstab, mountpoint), all that is needed after plugging in your stick is to open a terminal adn type something along the lines of

Code: Select all

sudo mount /media/usb

this isn't more difficult, it is just an extra step. lots of stuff that is called 'newbie friendly' simply translates to 'lazy'. there is no issue with laziness, however, you can be lazy *after you do the work*. in other words: if you first spend time learning how shit works, you can chill out afterwards. if you start by chilling, you learn nothing.

so yes, you got lots of reading to do :)

we are here to help you out. also consider the Wiki for some reading up on basic things such as terminals and whatnot > http://linuxbbq.org/wiki

welcome to the BBQ!

[machinebacon]

I might add to rhosewaldt's post that it is highly subjective if, for example, an inserted media should really be mounted automatically. Imagine the scenario in XP, where each time you put a CD into the drive, it starts spinning and opens a window to click if you want to open the CD in Explorer, or play it in media Player, or burn it, etc. This *coud* be called user-friendly, but actually it should be called:

- annoying
- time-consuming
- down the user's throat
- against the UNIX philosophy that there is not just ONE right way of doing something

In the optimal case, following the UNIX philosophy and also the BBQ philosophy, the default setup should do nothing when a stick or Cd is inserted, it should not be listed in a file manager (because you never know who will use it, or what the media contains) and mounting should only be possible with elevated privileges.
I warmly recommend to get used to the UNIX way of doing things, and to consider if it is really necessary to change it.

Little example:
recent BBQ releases expect the user to enter username/password, and then "startx" to start the WM session. Usually this would be done by a login manager. This piece of software would always keep on running in the background, even if it is only used once a day. It would be responsible for things like authentication and policies, and this means: it *manages* something that actually *YOU* should be able to manage. You should have the freedom to decide if you want to run an X session after login, or if you want to have your shit mounted automagically, or if you/the user should have the rights to shut down remote sessions etc. etc. What happens if there's a bug in the login manager, and you have to manually do these things? Yes -- then you would do it the UNIX way :)

[rhowaldt]

^ indeed-y-o-yesh.

it is the difference between having a pre-built home or building it yourself. the latter is more work, but you will have a very personal and familiair home, where, if something breaks (and it will break, somewhere, somehow), you will know how to fix it because you are intimate with the construction. plus, you learn lotsandlotsandlotsandlots.
when you have a pre-built home, you can move right in, all the work is done for you. when something breaks, you have to figure out how or what, based on the knowledge you (hopefully) acquired beforehand. if there is no such knowledge, you have a Problem.

personally, i never really saw the point of moving to Linux if i was going the pre-built way. Windows 7 is pre-built and completely 'user friendly' (barf), and honestly quite a solid OS. i could just keep using that.

P.S. on top of all that niceness, i have never been a part of a Windows community. i never met like-minded people, simply because Windows is built for the masses and the BBQ isn't. i don't enjoy the masses at all, so i am very glad i ended up here.

[mamaw]

this is going to be a lot of reading for me :D.

The real interesting points are when you begin to look for replacements for certain parts of your current system. (Ceni as opposed to Network Manager + Applet, for instance.) Do you need or really even want the little icon? Is it worth the cost in performance and dependencies? These are things that only you can decide.

hello DebJoe, i've read many of your post at #! forums :)
the only thing that i've tried without network-manager is wvdial. i've tried to disable NM, and after re-enabled eth0 at /etc/network/interfaces and restart the daemon, it failed to connect. it is connected before the NM installation. i need a further learn about these :D.
i'll play with ceni later when i am more confident with it.

Just as an example: after boot, do you want a Display Manager managing your login? If yes, which one, and if no, do you use xinit to startx via xinitrc or xsession? Should there be automounting, if yes, will you do it with policykit or put the mountable partitions into fstab?

so far i've tried many default DM, but right now i just type startx after login.
policykit ---> this is new to me. :/
so far for HDD partition i just put it into the fstab.
as for removable devices, i've seen 4 cases in thunar (but i don't know how or what happened).
1. Thunar automatically mounted the removable media and open a browser when i plug it.
2. It is listed in thunar tree, and it mounted when i click the icon.
3. It is listed there, but "not authorized to mount bla bla". i can't mount it :/ (ofc i can from terminal)
4. Not list at all.

so yes, you got lots of reading to do :)

we are here to help you out. also consider the Wiki for some reading up on basic things such as terminals and whatnot > http://linuxbbq.org/wiki

welcome to the BBQ!

thank you. please be patient with me :D

I warmly recommend to get used to the UNIX way of doing things, and to consider if it is really necessary to change it.

yes i agree. i want to know both the unix way and the desktop way (just in case i have to set up for another person). please lead me to the right direction (s) :)

[ivanovnegro]

If you want it easy, install a DM like LightDM etc., LightDM is especially useful for automounting stuff.

You say you cannot connect, what about installing ceni (it works perfectly, even I switched to it from Wicd) and let it do the magic with one command, obviously:

Code: Select all

ceni

It will ask you to disable NM, you can then even remove NM.

[mamaw]

It will ask you to disable NM, you can then even remove NM.

i have installed ceni today from siduction repos. disable NM but not yet uninstalled it :D

[machinebacon]

you can remove the front-end of it (network-manager-gnome and similar packages), and keep network-manager. Doesn't weigh much.