The Future of amd64 spins

machinebacon
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The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by machinebacon » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:34 pm

Preamble

64bit versions have always been a pain in the ass to build and also to install software on (skype, wine, just to name two, need the 32bit or multiarch added, which is totally against the BBQ philosopy)

Proposal
The idea is to eventually stop the development of 'new' 64bit spins. Users can roll up to sync by performing 'upg' even on systems that weren't upgraded for around a year, and naturally existing installations can be dist-upgraded "forever".

Aftermath
This doesn't mean that 64bit is not on the menu anymore: LinuxBBQ will continue updating:
- 'Bloat' (the roast your own system)
- 'Rice' (which is basically no-X plus emacs)
- 'Cameltoe' (to have a no-GTK3 no-DM entry point with a lightweight WM)

Exceptions
If users ask for an update/upgrade of an 'expired' amd64 spin, the Standing Committee of the Grill will gather and make a decision, depending on urgency and necessity.

Final Words
The BBQ will always support obscure software projects and this does also show on the hardware requirements. All i686 spins work on computers that run a CPU with i686 instruction set, and the delivered kernels will always be non-PAE on the installation media. Plenty of PAE kernels are in the repositories. Furthermore, the ISO size of i686 releases will never exceed 700MB.

Thanks you for your understanding, and happy grilling!
..gnutella..

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wuxmedia
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by wuxmedia » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:55 pm

hear, hear!

Foooar he's a jolly good fellow, etc 8)
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bones
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by bones » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:24 pm

Sounds legit!

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ivanovnegro
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by ivanovnegro » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:38 am

One thing to add to the BBQ philosophy: we fight obsolescence.

hinto
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by hinto » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:55 am

hmmm... sounds a bit 20th century, tho. amd64/emt64 has been around since 2003. 10 years... that's ancient for technology. You however are the founder...
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machinebacon
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by machinebacon » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:21 am

@hinto, seriously:

What's wrong with having three 64bit releases that are still maintained, plus 23 which can be kept rolling? Plus the option of having point releases at any time? Show me another distro that caters so well to each and every user.

And yes, I'm proud of being "20th century". There's still 'real' siduction that keep the high end satisfied, and for Sid there's no other distro that tries to unbloat what the 21st century has brought us. No, I'm not talking of systemd (which can be, in it's actual state, run parallel to sysvinit and easily, with one command, be disabled) or the policykit/consolekit monstrosity that prevents users from mounting their own devices if not set up explicitly.

The fact is that 64-bit - right now, with the new kernel - doesn't run live for many amd64 machines. Not my choice, blame the trinity initramfs/kernel/bios. The only option would be a crunchbangish/slackwareish "install first, test then'. If this is what the users love, I will make it happen.

And I'm also not bothered at all about the 'loss of popularity' if amd64-only folks don't agree to the plans and switch bases. There are around 647 other distros that can be chosen from. I'm just a hobbyist.
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DebianJoe
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by DebianJoe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:56 am

hinto wrote:... sounds a bit 20th century
I can only speak for myself, but this very statement screams "Good stuff." The 21st century has not exactly been kind to technological improvement that isn't consumerist based.

"You NEED 8 cores in a CPU."-Every Manufacturer.

No, I don't "need" to be able to exceed what is generally supported by software. It's one of the many reasons that I personally don't buy into the Win8/KDE/Gnome3 school of "just add more stuff...more stuff is better." It's not. It's opposed to the very Unix concept of making something that does what it does well. I'm sure that someone "needs" to be able to render video while they browse the internet while they listen to music while they dehash a password while they run a VM. I don't, and it always seems a huge waste of resources and money to have 16GB of memory and the latest multi-cored processor so that I can run a text editor and a compiler.

Once again, speaking ONLY for myself.
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by machinebacon » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:13 am

^ ...which I sign hereby.
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vic
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by vic » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:59 am

As I said earlier "sounds perfectly reasonable to me". But I have one little question though, just so I have understood this. Is the estimated life span of an iso based on sid considered to be ca one year?
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by machinebacon » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:47 pm

Vic,

when you get yourself, for example, a Sid release that was built on a snapshot of August 2012, you can basically download this ISO in August or September 2013, or even later, and perform a dist-upgrade without running into problems. In some cases (release freeze) even a few months longer. I had had an experiment with a sidux spin of 2008 (XFCE version) that I installed in 2011, and it upgraded nearly perfectly (had to change the sources to point at aptosid, those days) I just mention it for the sake of completeness, actually nothing bad can happen if you install an old sid base and dist-upgrade it - as long as you check what is going to be removed in the dist-upgrade.

Once you got into the update/dist-upgrade rhythm, the release will roll 'forever' - it means, actually you never need to reinstall.

Hope it answers your question :)
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by missinglink » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:07 pm

Maybe polish the thread into a wiki entry to help steer some folks?
Include, e.g.,
1) hardware (incl. <4GB memory) that can't use/won't benefit from 64bit,
2) if hardware (incl. 4GB+ ram) could benefit from 64bit, what software choices would "need" it,
3) benefits from 32bit regardless of max hardware; software compatibility or otherwise.
Probably didn't state these properly. Plz adjust to taste or point out if it's already covered where I failed to dig it out.

I've posted a vaguely related thread for my on-the-go netbook, as it's 64bit, but has hardwired 2GB ram. Ready to wipe my #!-11-64bit install and start again with something like Darkside as my everyday, then add more BBQ to choke the 256GB SSD.

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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by hinto » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:21 pm

I missed the "submit" but you're correct... I was being devil's advocate. 64 bit has really taken a back seat for many years and it just kinda poked me. In reality, nothing is ever old in SID. apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade always makes you current. How about a deb (or script) that would help me re-theme say one XFCE version (like Mother) to another XCFE version (like Pompous).
-Hinto
Last edited by hinto on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by gurtid » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:03 pm

i only use 64bit so would be disappointed to see 64bit development dropped altogether.

I saying that, can understand the reasons. As long as some 64bit isos are available on the server then I guess :shrug: WTF, I'll STFU.

A possible solution might be for a community member (or members) to step up and assist mb in taking over, with very direct supervision (i.e. under mb thumb), development of the 64bit side.
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by pidsley » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:07 pm

gurtid, did you miss this part:
machinebacon wrote:The fact is that 64-bit - right now, with the new kernel - doesn't run live for many amd64 machines. Not my choice, blame the trinity initramfs/kernel/bios. The only option would be a crunchbangish/slackwareish "install first, test then'. If this is what the users love, I will make it happen.
Building 64-bit live spins appears to be a major PITA; if bacon is having problems with it, it seems unlikely that anyone else here would be able to take it over.

You can always run 32-bit spins on your 64-bit hardware. They will run well.

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DebianJoe
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by DebianJoe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:11 pm

missinglink wrote: 2) if hardware (incl. 4GB+ ram) could benefit from 64bit, what software choices would "need" it,
Due to the possibility of pulling PAE kernels into a 32-bit install, even the magical RAM number really isn't a huge factor. I run a heavily modified Elektra on a laptop with 6GB of RAM. Works great.
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by pidsley » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:19 pm

^ How much memory do you use of that 6G? I have 4G in my 64-bit desktop, and I've never seen it use more than around 600M. The 32-bit installs never use more than half that, unless they're Gentoo, building Firefox. :)

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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by DebianJoe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:22 pm

...about 120 MB max, with all bells and whistles I'd ever use. I pulled in the PAE headers/image to make htop look better. ;)

edit: Before it even comes up, I bought the laptop used for $150 USD. It would appear that the Core2 w/ 6GB of RAM had become outdated to the user and they just wanted it gone. Their loss. I still feel like it's overkill for almost everything I use a laptop for.
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by dkeg » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:33 pm

DebianJoe wrote:...about 120 MB max, with all bells and whistles I'd ever use. I pulled in the PAE headers/image to make htop look better. ;)
hilarious, I guess i'm kind of guily of the same thing. Well, so to speak, didn't like that didn't recognize what I had. but yeah, not b/c I actually needed it. also generally don't go above a few hundred mb.

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gurtid
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by gurtid » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:39 pm

pidsley wrote:gurtid, did you miss this part:
machinebacon wrote:The fact is that 64-bit - right now, with the new kernel - doesn't run live for many amd64 machines. Not my choice, blame the trinity initramfs/kernel/bios. The only option would be a crunchbangish/slackwareish "install first, test then'. If this is what the users love, I will make it happen.
Building 64-bit live spins appears to be a major PITA; if bacon is having problems with it, it seems unlikely that anyone else here would be able to take it over.

You can always run 32-bit spins on your 64-bit hardware. They will run well.
Well, yes. I guess I missed that part pidsley. Thanks for clarifying.
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Re: The Future of amd64 spins

Unread post by DebianJoe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:43 pm

@dkeg

I'm honestly curious as to what people are doing that does require that. VMs are the only thing that I can honestly come up with, as I am normally running with emacs open for coding, two or three urxvts for file-transfers, git, and cat commands, vim for how it handles markdown files OOTB, a web browser, and moc.

I know that on compiling source that it probably crawls up over my normal usage mark, but I'm not normally paying attention to monitoring it then.
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